Thanks for the responses. Somehow they ended up in my Gmail SPAM
folder?? I don't think I've got them all as I feel I'm missing one :-(
On 3/24/23 11:03, Stuart Henderson wrote:
> On 2023-03-24, Polarian <polarian@polarian.dev> wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>>> IIRC you're UK based aren't you? Which ISP?
>> If I had known this, the email I just sent in response would have been
>> more direct :/ whoops...
>>
>>> If the ISP is using Openreach's FTTP you will need to use their ONT
>>> which will act as a bridge, then you use your own or an ISP-provided
>>> router connected over ethernet. Typically it's PPPoE though the
>>> backhaul supports plain ethernet and some ISPs (notably Sky) use it,
>>> normally with DHCP. The ONT is not user-configurable and you have to
>>> use it.
>> Openreach has nothing to do with this thankfully, apart from being
>> arseholes when it comes to limiting upload speeds.
> The available upload speeds are down to the technology used.
Right now, what has happened is that I have been with PlusNet for many
years... probably 10 or 15 - I can't recall the exact duration. When I
signed up all the settings were nicely put into a page on their website
so no problem for me and definitely no panic.
In my area.... you would think being a large City that there would be
more options available but I am down to around 5 providers, 2 of which
are cable based so mainly deal in TV over IP stuff.... currently I'm
just about to sign on with G-Net as really outside of BT there is no one
else around that I can see as being suitable :-(
Stu, could you elaborate a little on what you mean about the technology
being used? From my own experience in DSL and having a Zyxel DSLAM (to
play with - yeay to nppd in OpenBSD haha) there are different profiles
that you can put users on.
I'm guessing that you are referring to the signalling type of the actual
fiber connection itself? <- as in multi mode or single mode etc.. I'm
not confusing DSL with fiber as they are two separate technologies but
just trying to relate to each.
From the packages available, it seems that I can get up to 1Gb/s or
900Mb/s as they write in both directions. Unfortunately it's a budget
thing that I can't go higher then asynchronous right now. I think it's
300Mbps down with 30Mbps or 50Mbps up... not much more then my current
~20Mbps upstream rate
>
>> I will quote the other comment here now because I will discuss it too.
>>
>>> Non-Openreach-based vary. If you're lucky you might get pppoe out of
>>> the ONT and be able to connect your own router (likely with at least
>>> some of the ISPs selling CityFibre-based lines). Some others are
>>> often much more locked down - if you're lucky you might get to put
>>> their kit in bridge mode, if not you might be behind a NAT router and
>>> can't do anything about it. (Some don't even let you make changes to
>>> even things as simple as wifi SSID yourself and you need to get them
>>> to do it for you). I haven't seen any that will let you connect to
>>> the incoming fibre directly.
>> So, lets talk about UK's bad infrastructure.
>>
>> The MAJORITY of ISPs WILL NOT permit using of custom routers, this
>> includes all the big corpas you know of. I believe you must pay for
>> business lines, and pay extra for the ability to use your own router for
>> some, and some outright refuse.
> This is nonsense. For the MAJORITY of UK ISPs there is no problem at all
> using whatever router you want.
>
> The most common ones where you can't are (mostly geographically limited)
> "altnet" providers that don't do wholesale (and in some cases barely seem
> to know how to run a network at all...)
My line is a business line with a block of 8 IPv4 addresses and will
have VoIP services to follow as I need to port my PSTN number across to
a SIP trunk.
>
>> Some ISPs, such as virgin media, do support custom routers... sort of.
>>
>> They force you to pass all packets through their router, but you can put
>> the router in modem mode and then push packets through it with a second
>> router, but the router is still mandatory to use.
> Virgin Media are a bit of a special case because they're mostly doing
> cable modems and yes they do require their combined router/modem device.
> It wouldn't really help much if they split into separate modem and
> router anyway. And anyway they are moving to GPON (after a slight diversion
> via RFOG to allow them to do new fibre infrastructure installs using fibre
> before they have got proper fibre CPE ready).
I would imagine Sky doing something similar as both are originally cable
media providers. But I have never used either so....
>
>> As for the ONT's I am not sure, but the openreach modem I am using is
>> cracked, people spend a lot of time cracking open the software locks on
>> the openreach gear, this allows us to get cheap ONTs and modems without
>> having to pay the earth for a managed one.
> Openreach's ONTs are centrally managed and provisioned. There is no way
> that they can push the _required_ configuration to a third party one.
> And the only possible advantage to doing so is "one less box", otherwise
> well you aren't paying for it separately, it's included in the service.
> Just treat it like you treat the phone socket for DSL.
>
>> As a rule of thumb, do not use a ISP which forces you to use their
>> router, so BT, Sky, Virgin Media etc etc etc all are a no go, you need
>> to find an ISP which gives you a list of routers to buy with your
>> installation, or which outright make it optional, these ISPs will allow
>> you to use your own router.
> BT allow you to use your own router.
>
> Sky allow you to use your own router. (Used to be some extra faff with
> sending specific DHCP options though I understand that has stopped now).
>
> btw you talked about contended services; yes fibre services are
> contended, but so are ADSL/VDSL (uplink for the termination kit is
> lower, often *much* lower, than the combined available capacity). And
> backhaul from the exchange is contended. And internet bandwidth is
> contended. And their transit provider's bandwidth is contended. Same for
> all types of access technology, it's just too expensive otherwise.
>
> Advantage of higher speed connections is that people aren't generally
> transferring _hugely_ more data than they did before, just that it's
> in a shorter time. So when things are contended, it's often for a much
> shorter duration. Have a look at SIN 506 for details of how bandwidth
> management is done on openreach gea-fttp for the fttp side of things but
> in a nutshell on a 1G downstream service, you get at least 110M, but
> in practice unless planning has screwed up or there's a reduction in
> capacity due to an outage or something, you very often do get the full
> advertised speed.
>
> The actual place most likely to run into contention on these services
> is at the exchange level not the PON level (where connections from a
> number of different GPON networks are fed to one ISP/wholesaler's
> backhaul equipment in the exchange, or similarly for VDSL or ADSL
> connections being fed across).
As far as I am aware the contention rates for business packages are far
lower then residential packages which is what makes them slightly more
expensive. Maybe I have been lucky with my current provider (which will
cease their business lines in November) that I have always got pretty
much line rate.
>
>> I use andrews and arnolds as an ISP, most people will be deterred, but
>> the reasons for picking them in my opinion:
>>
>> - GPG encrypted email to support and sales team.
>>
>> - IRC support during normal working hours, no need for proprietary web
>> chats, you can use your favourite IRC client.
>>
>> - Supports custom routers, they do not ship a router or modem with your
>> broadband, they leave it up to you.
>>
>> - Line metrics, testing tools etc, their client panel has everything you
>> will ever need.
> - Lots of NIH
>
> - Weird semi broken authoritative name server :p
>
> - If someone sends too many packets at you they aggressively knock the
> connection offline and don't allow reconnection for a short time (which
> is fun if you forget and accidentally try a udp bandwidth test from a
> colo box with decent connectivity...)
>
> swings and roundabouts.
>
They are not even available for me.... I actually wanted to go for
Hyperoptic as they have been doing fiber for years but never around in
my area. Now they seem to have installed some equipment near my area but
still don't offer any services.
There is also something called Community Fiber....?? No idea what that
is but again not in my area lol
Actually even BT OpenReach don't have full fiber in my area.... only
G-Net dug up the whole street a few months back laying their cabling.
Just transferred a few emails today and hoping to talk to someone at
Tier2 tech support. "sales" have advised me that the connection is in
fact a PPPoE type so no problem as my OpenBSD system is already
configured for this.
I read these in previous comments but haven't seen them above so
probably snipped out and I'll just pop some more info here at the end:
I am now told the ONT will be this guy:
https://www.manualslib.com/manual/1314384/Nokia-7368.html?page=80#manual
which is a Nokia 7368
Right now I have been assured that it can do L2 bridging....
To the Cisco comment earlier about it being proprietary.... I know! The
thing I like with Cisco is that they use at least semi decent hardware
and have a full featured software. Sure, with my network and load they
do crash easily which is why I have restricted my 887VA into bridge
mode. OpenBSD is so good at handling everything else with ease that I
don't understand why more people don't use it. Why spend $$$ on devices
when you can build a server system for far less?? Ok sure, you won't get
some of the connection types of the larger grade stuff like the blade
network infrastructure but for an edge WAN router/FW it makes more sens....
Unfortunately I could find no really good *DSL PCI card which is why I
bought the Cisco in the first place. The preconfigured junk I got
supplied with got chucked into a cupboard and never used, I don't think
that I have even turned it on <gulp>
For now I will see what happens with this ONT. It's the size of a dongle
and I don't have much hope for stability but perhaps later on once it's
installed and up and running and I have some more information from tech
support, I can look at going my own route.
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